AVID:Requests for Comment/Availability proposals

Removal of the Availability tiers (Common, Extinct, etc.).
Hello hello. I am back with a rather broad RfC this time. Before I start telling why availability tiers should be removed, I will mention what they are in the first place.

''What are the availability tiers?

In many Availability sections, you would see a mark, such as "Common", "Rare" or "Extinct". And those are the things I propose to be gone for good. Why?

Why remove the Availability tiers?
 * I have four reasons as to why they should be removed;


 * They're subjective. Subjectivity was a huge issue in the old CLG wiki era, whetever it was the Scare/Cheesy Factor or the Nicknames. In the case of availability tiers, one could say that the logo is extinct, even though it ended up being a couple tiers lower, like extremely rare. For instance, the Fox World Productions logo used to be called Extinct due to the few programs it was known to appear on, but as more was discovered, its tier fell down significantly.
 * It would help editors. How so? Well, editing an Availability section usually is stating where the logo can be seen and in some cases, what medium. The removal of availability tiers would not only make editing easier in terms of time, but also to not think as to what logo could be rare and whatnot. This would otherwise intertwine with the first point in terms of giving the editor a chance to.. opinionate.
 * It's another remnant of the Americentric nature of the old wiki. We removed the Americentric natures of the wiki a while ago, but this seemed to just stay there. To clarify, a lot of the members of the wiki are from the West (the Americas) and it sometimes has caused issues in terms of availability. For example, there have been pages with "Rare in North America but common everywhere else" in them. Additionally, there have been cases where a foreign logo has been thought to be rare but only because the logo didn't show up in western media.
 * The potential availability revamp could easily be worked further without the availability tiers, as it would make it much easier with those out of the question.

And with that, I will leave it here. Thoughts? RfC proposed by VPJHuk (talk) 19:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1) The Americentrism point is not explained, but it is true - western editors are quick to label a logo rare for not appearing a lot in western media, even if it's common elsewhere. Chloafifteen (talk) 20:39, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I have now clarified that point in particular, as that one was definetly a rush job from me :P VPJHuk (talk) 20:15, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) These are useless ForcedExcess26 (talk) 19:49, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) Very good points. DisneyInternationalFan (talk) 19:52, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 3) Per everyone else. It's about time we make this wiki more of a database. Vague tiers are just not it. Logoarto (talk) 23:53, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) This needs to happen. We are not qualitipedia, and we should not just judge how "rare" a logo is based on our experience.Compooper (talk) 23:59, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) . The tiers just aren't that professional anymore, and with another proposed change to the availability section, they're quite frankly, obselete. Eternity Media Group (talk) 00:12, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 6)  To be honest, I never really cared for the tiers even back under our old name and never really used them since joining the wiki primarily because I never exactly knew how common or rare the logos I was adding to the wiki were. I absolutely agree with VPJ's points, especially on how subjective and Americentric the tiers feel. StarlightFantasy (talk) 02:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 7)  Per everyone else. Much needed for video games logos. Ashley Taylor ft. Cure Finale (soulbond friend) and CW/RB (account manager w/ shared pet) (talk)
 * 8) per others. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 05:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 9) I thought at first you would be removing the Availability section entirely, but after realising what it's really about, I guess it could work. Gilby1385 (talk) 11:38, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 10) I usually have so much trouble using the availability tiers, so I can get behind this. Tabit (talk) 03:14, 18 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 11) per above

Oppose

 * 1) I do not think it is wise to consider removing the tiers at this point in time, it should be reconsidered and implemented only when the alternative is put into place, as otherwise plenty of pages will be left as blank. No need to jump the gun so early. LoganStuff (talk) 22:27, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) If this happens to many supports, I better cry. TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon) (this is my talk page) 23:37, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Would be a real shocker. SquidBoxing (talk) 09:41, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * So far, I'd say it isn't a shocker. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 21:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) I think that's a rather poor idea. - Preceding unsigned comment by Daemonspudguy
 * How so? T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 05:08, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Trevor807 It turns out that these availability scarred my childhood, I would understand if this logo is rare to find or hard to find, and so on. I don't want them to be removed from the Wiki, I just think it's really silly and VERY silly to be considered "useless", i have no idea if they are going to be replaced by any, or in the near future until availability can be removed. TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon) (this is my talk page) 18:09, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * These availability scarred your childhood how? T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 21:26, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * I would understand if this logo is rare to find or hard to find, and so on. This is the reason TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon) (this is my talk page) 22:22, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * No, I mean the use of "scarred".T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 05:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * @Trevor807 Why do you want to know? That reason was enough. TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon) (this is my talk page) 17:58, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) Definitely not trying to be sarcastic or anything but I will say this briefly by any point explained. I get the fact that centrism part makes sense, literally from a West perspective, I get that. But my simple question is... why not trying to be "not" centric? Also another comment, constant changes... I disagree on this part too cuz some pages need constant changes on description or variants, if not even that, editors can decide anything, they are the people who do research into the article. Again, great idea but kinda eh reasons. SquidBoxing (talk) 00:17, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * this oppose is built upon very half-baked reasoning itself. We can't enforce "not being americentric", whereas we can enforce the non-use of availability tiers. Furthermore, the criticism of the "constant changes" point acts like every single section is the same, when in fact, the fact that some sections are constantly edited should not determine whether another, completely different section should be constantly edited or not. Eternity Media Group (talk) 01:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Per EMG. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 05:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) We've had these for ages, and these are a staple of AVID. Sonicfan19198282 (talk) 08:11, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Just being a staple of the site doesn’t make them necessary. Eternity Media Group (talk) 08:34, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * Per EMG, and I'd like to add that a lot of things were staples of CLG/AVID, and a lot of these staples will not be missed. Chloafifteen (talk) 17:46, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * We got rid of factors and nicknames, which were also staples for years. How is this any different than getting rid of those? T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 05:33, 17 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments

 * 1)  Considering this RFC is making a major change to the wiki, it fails to consider several potential outcomes:
 * 2) * If the section only states the tier and nothing else, what will happen?
 * 3) * Articles that fall under categories such as TV identifications and cinema trailers frequently fall under the above statement.
 * The issue is that by simply removing the tiers in the above cases, you will be blanking it and leaving empty space in the descriptions, which is obviously a violator of the "No blank sections" rule. That is where, if this proposal passes, then consider these ideas:
 * 1) * You can't just replace them with "Seen on their releases" and nothing else. That would mean breaking the whole purpose of the section as stated in the tutorial guide.
 * 2) * Moreover with the above, if the section does not state any examples, while considering that "Unknown" is a tier in the section, then use "It is unknown where this logo can be found".
 * 3) * Considering there was a proposal a year ago that made the section optional on television ID pages, remove it unless it states where specifically it can be found.
 * Lastly, I want to comment on the "notable rarity" issue that has been floating on my mind since this proposal came to light. Well, we have the Legacy section, and there are plenty of articles that make note of that, so that would be a fair compromise similar to how a logo's reputation (if notable) can be kept in said section. Camenati (talk) 20:14, 14 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) * Response; For a bunch of these, one can simply try and research information with it. This is going to be a bit of me throwing shade at the ones who threw in tiers only, as that's just adding in no information whatsoever, and therefore should be researched again. A disclaimer to add information can be added in to explain the lack of availability, similiar to those "stub" article disclaimers. TV idents can easily be mentioned in a similiar fashion as to test cards. One can add in where the ident usually appeared on and what time, and maybe a few exceptions. As for cinema idents, that's a hard one. The unknown logo tier could be one of the few exceptions, since that is one of the few valid tiers aside from. Maybe replace the "tier-only" availabilities with an unknown tier? Overall, the last point being the availability revamp could easily be worked upon these following issues with additional fixes, ones that I can't address as well. Great points though! VPJHuk (talk) 20:32, 14 August 2023 (UTC)

Availability revamp
Supplementing VPJ's proposal, I'd like to propose a revamp of the availability section using these tables to list out every show a logo has appeared on. Please tell me what you think. Draft:Availability revamp

These tables would supplement the existing availability section and would be hyperlinked from the main page. I hope this revamp would potentially make the wiki more reliable and resembles a database more than its current form. Logoarto (talk) 01:02, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

EDIT: The table will be on the same page if there are only 1-5 sources. Thanks Camenati for the heads up. And to Logan, this table will only be mandatory for production logos, home media bumpers, commercial tags, boot/splashes, and film leaders. Logoarto (talk) 05:30, 15 August 2023 (UTC)

Support

 * 1)  this is one of the better ideas for this wiki that has sprung as of late. Another step towards being a proper database being made. Compooper (talk) 01:13, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) . (Edit conflict w/ Compooper) Having seen this idea develop over the last month or so I'm quite excited about how much more comprehensive this will make us as an information source. sig.png Talk ·&#32;Edits 01:15, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 3)  a weak support for this one but pretty good nonetheless JrStudios (talk) 01:23, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) . We are supposed to be an informative site. Bringing this new availability table into the mix would be a significant step up from where we currently are. Eternity Media Group (talk) 01:31, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * , as it is a very solid compromise for the bloated Availability examples that lists too many examples. However, I think this proposal needs more fleshing out. For instance, I wouldn't agree with splitting the lists from all the pages, which includes logos that only appeared on one or a few sources. Also, if the tables have too many examples, then consider splitting them into sections for convenience. Otherwise, I am sold on this idea. Camenati (talk) 01:33, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 1) per others. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 01:51, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 2) I'm going to work almost on video games logos, with bits of film and television logos. Ashley Taylor ft. Cure Finale (soulbond friend) and CW/RB (account manager w/ shared pet) (talk)
 * 3) Per Everyone ForcedExcess26 (talk) 12:40, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 4) because some people like looking for logos, so I think we should still keep the names of films and/or TV shows and/or home media releases etc. where it can be found. Sonicfan19198282 (talk) 17:03, 15 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 5) Interesting idea, but originally I was going to put it as an oppose because this one can take longer than the other one that we are used to, but since there is no way, I will still support it. ¯⁠\⁠_⁠(⁠ツ⁠)⁠_⁠/⁠¯ TPatKB (AKA Mr Vadimon) (this is my talk page) 18:04, 17 August 2023 (UTC)
 * 6) Lovin' this idea, since it actually at least gives us actual sources of where the logo can be found. Tabit (talk) 03:20, 18 August 2023 (UTC)

Comments

 * I have already made my concerns known in private, but I'd still like to reiterate that I will personally only support this if it's made an optional inclusion on certain categories such as TV Bumpers, Cinema Trailers and Test Cards. While it makes sense (and should definitely be mandatory) for the more 'traditional' logo pages, it doesn't make sense for the aformentioned excluded categories due to their existing availability. They're either in circulation (Common), or they're no longer used (Extinct), there's not really a lot of nuance there. Again, it's a great idea on paper and I completely support it being implemented in certain categories, it just needs to be made optional for the categories that don't fit well with it. LoganStuff (talk) 01:39, 15 August 2023 (UTC)