AVID:Requests for Comment/Rules reform

Now that the discussions phase of the rules reform has closed, it's time to vote on the suggestions you the community suggested! HibiscusCrown20 (talk) 22:24, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

=Additions=

Suggestion 1 - Add rules related to the forum (Compooper)
Suggestion from user: "Maybe some more rules related to the forum could be added."

Support

 * 1)  AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 2 - Clarify the purpose of the Legacy section in Tutorial Guidelines and discourage misuse (Trevor807)
Suggestion from user: "Make it very clear that the "Legacy" section shouldn't be used like the previous "Editor's Note" (i.e. no opinionating or rethemed Scare Factors or Cheesy Factors)."

Support
Considering that my vision for the Legacy section was to prevent bias and repurposed scare/cheesy factors, this is honestly one of my favorite rule suggestions. ★ Nova (talk) 23:06, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  The reason why I opposed the rename from Editor's Note to Legacy is because I felt that a rename wouldn't change anything and we needed better rules instead. I'm not sure if it should be as strict as Trevor says, as this wiki has a unique personality that I don't want to get thrown out, but some rules similar to YMMV on TV Tropes would work. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 3 - Prohibit redundant redirects (Camenati)
Suggestion and reasoning from user: "Why not a rule directed towards redirects? Specifically, no redundant redirects. This includes slight variations of a company's name (i.e. Ragdoll Productions' redirected page is simply called Ragdoll) or those that has a country name next to it. Some admins have took note of this and removed many as this has clogged up the search engine. To add on that, it makes navigating between pages more confusing, especially now that some lead to dead pages that were deleted a few days ago. I think only former names of a company or their acronym are acceptable, but not those that are too similar to the original page's name."

Suggestion 3.1 - Exempt grammatical variations from the redundant redirect rule (Hb1290)
Suggestion and reasoning from user: "I would say grammatical variations should be accepted too, like if a company has a hyphen in their name we should be able to have a hyphenless redirect to make it easier to search and link that page. "

Suggestion 4 - Restrict or hide captures of NSFW logos and forbid videos of logos containing jumpscares (Pingu)
Suggestions and reasoning from user: "Mature (NSFW) images and videos should be restricted or hidden behind spoiler tags. There should be no videos for entries that involve shocking content like jumpscares, for safety reasons. Further reading: |https://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Administrivia/ExampleSectionectomy"

Oppose

 * 1)  Except for MTV Asia's "Food For Thought" and the logos with particularly pornographic imagery (the latter of which aren't really linked to the wiki much anyways so much as just described with a picture of the final logo and no video), we don't have anything bad enough on this wiki to be balked at by the TV Tropes P3. The markers are sufficient. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 5 - Reinstate "No predictions" and "No low-quality pictures" rules (CooleyBoy10)
Suggestion and reasoning from user: "There are some rules that used to be on the old wiki that were oddly removed from this version's rules, which I still feel could be of use on here. The two I'm thinking of are no predictions (i.e., say, if NBC got a new logo, and somebody added "This will be first seen on [random show] on [random date]") and only add that IF/WHEN it actually happens, and no low-quality pictures (so nothing with Bandicam watermarks, YouTube artifacts, etc.)."

Support
, this is a great idea! The "No predictions" rule should definitely be enforced more, let's say, hypothetically, someone says the current Sega Films logo could appear on Sonic the Hedgehog 3, come 2024, and Sega introduces a new film logo instead. Yeah, predicting a logo's appearance on one of the company's future productions is not very wise. ★ Nova (talk) 22:50, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * Same as Nova. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 22:58, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  These weren't even rules to begin with? No wonder people drive me nuts. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 6 - Require sourcing for claims and add a Citations tag similar to Wikipedia's (CooleyBoy10)
Suggestion and reasoning from user: "It's possible this rule might be too restrictive or whatever, but I feel like we need a rule about sourcing your claims. What I mean is, if you say "This logo's jingle was composed by this person" or "This company helped produce this logo" or etc., you should add a source backing up that claim. Also IDK if we have a "citation needed" tag like Wikipedia does but we REALLY need that."

Support

 * 1)  This will be very difficult, and require lots of scanning of the wiki's FX and Trivia sections. I know for a fact that in the case of Prologue Films, which removed plenty of logos from its site when it was redesigned, there may be no source. But it will at least help get rid of misinformation. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Comments
=Removals=

Suggestion 1 - Remove "No Espionage" (Compooper)
Current rule: "No spying for those who had been blocked, either. Anyone found to be practicing espionage for anyone who has been blocked from AVID will meet the same fate, i.e. blocked."

Reasoning from user: "When has THAT ever happened? In any case, I feel it isn't relevant to this wiki in today's world."

Support

 * Yeah that rule was an overreaction. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 22:59, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * The reason a rule made for such an obscure Wetpaint era incident was on the Miraheze wiki will forever be unknown. ★ Nova (talk) 23:10, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 2 - Remove "Don't edit with text extensions" (CooleyBoy10)
Current rule: "Certain add-ons or toolbars can mess up text you post on a website, or change words into something else. For example, during the Wikifoundry era, admin Wyraachur got into hot water for having an add-on that automatically changed words to My Little Pony: Friendship is Magic-related terms (like "everybody" to "everypony" and "America" to "Amareica"). If you have one of these, either remove it, disable it or whitelist this website on it immediately, because they can cause bugs."

Reasoning from user: "When was the last time anybody ever used toolbars, or got tricked into downloading one? As for the add-ons that change text (including the infamous MLP one), I'd say those have mostly gone the way of the dodo bird as well."

Support

 * 1)  Even if this does end up happening some day, we don't need this specific of a rule. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 3 - Remove subrule of "Don't spam the forums" regarding plastering (Compooper)
Current rule: "Related to the above, please do not create any threads on logo plastering. If the plastering is notable enough (for example, not just another case of the SPT logo plastering a CPT one), please add it into the proper page."

Reasoning from user: "Is a rule THIS specific necessary?"

Comments
=Modifications=

Suggestion 1 - Revise "Irrelevant Content" to add more examples (Compooper)
Current rule: Anything not related to the topic of closing logos will be removed upon sight. Examples of this type of content include:

- Dream logos: Fictitious logos of any form are not allowed in article space and will be deleted on sight. You are still free to show off reconstructions, or your own logo creations in userspace (meaning on your userpage or a subpage thereof)

- Inauthentic images/videos/remakes: We only accept real on-screen video captures of (animated and still) logos and in-credit logos independently if it has the proper logo theme, the (opening/closing) title theme from any television series, TV movie, theatrical feature, documentary, newscaster, or video game, or it's accompanied by an announcer spiel, or it's silent. As for video game captures with hacks used, the only modifications that are permitted on this wiki are widescreen patches and screen field of view/2D interface scaling tweaks (for revealing items that are hidden off-screen like positions where something starts or stops at especially 3D objects during the logo sequence. Two examples include the Universal Interactive logo moved from the screen and the gameplay interface that appears above the Nintendo logo at the startup.) using mod loaders, hex-edited executables, configuration edits, codes designed to change them through cheating devices like Action Replay, Gecko and Gameshark (for console games) and the command lines to change the resolution/aspect. Any other modifications such as textures, music, models etc. are to be posted either in userspace or in the Spoofs channel of the AVID Discord

- Off-topic discussion: This is a logo/identity wiki. We are not interested in any screenplays, novels, etc. Repeated behavior with a suspected intent to spam on the wiki may result in a ban .

- Relating to the above, no uploading any non-logo related pictures to the photo gallery. Only real on-screen photo captures of (animated and still) logos and in-credit logos will be accepted, and the offending pictures will automatically be rejected. The only exceptions to this rule are images used for templates and images for use on a user page. Such images should be flagged accordingly in their descriptions. For user profile images use Template:ImageForProfile

- Parody logos can be added ONLY if they are notable and such logos should only appear on AVID:Logos in Popular Culture.

Reasoning from user: "Irrelevant Content: I feel like it should be rewritten to provide more relevant examples, such as about the off topic discussions, maybe we can allow that under certain cases. I also think politics discussions should be added to the list."

Support
Yes stuff like Ice Level should not be included here Anticritic12 (talk) 22:59, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 1.1 - Change rule to allow discussion of non-related logos (Anticritic12)
Suggestion from user: "Allow the star wars logo and similar logos"

Comments
Please don't vote here I regret making this proposalAnticritic12 (talk) 22:53, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 2 - Update "No Fake Logos", remove mention of "Hacked Accounts" rule (Compooper)
Current rule: "Making fake reports on real logos or pages will not be tolerated. If you abuse this rule then the administrative team will take proper action accordingly. If you suspect that you have been hacked, please see rule #5."

Reasoning from user: "I wonder why it has randomly a mention of rule 5. It is not really necessary. This rule in general could use an update as it relates to the terms used "fake reports on real logos" does not exactly mean "fake logos"."

Suggestion 2.1 - Retitle rule to "The logo must be legitimate" (Nova)
Suggestion from user: "TBH I think it should be titled "The logo must be legitimate.""

Support
Remember that an LDA/CBSEye76 (a former SiIvaGunner-like logo upload channel that is now the official AVID YouTube channel) rip was on the HBO Downtown Productions page at one point. Not a wise move. ★ Nova (talk) 23:15, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 3 - Update and further enforce "No blank pages" (Compooper)
Current rule: "If you create a page concerning a closing logo, do not leave it blank. The person who created the page will be given two weeks to place content on the respective page. If no content is added within that time frame, then the page will be marked as a stub. Stubs may be flagged for deletion at any time if content has not been added."

Reasoning from user: I feel like we're not enforcing this one enough. This could really use some changes."

Support

 * 1)  AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 3.1 - Add subrule saying that describing at least one logo in a new page is required (DisneyInternationalFan)
Suggestion from user: "How about something like this? "You may not write descriptions where every section is marked "TBA" either. You should make an effort to describe at least one logo.""

Suggestion 3.2 - Add mentions of the new Draft System (Logohub)
Suggestion from user: "Some additions about the draft system should be included."

Suggestion 4 - Remove mentions of older WikiFoundry-era users (Compooper)
Suggestion from user: "BOTH - Don't edit with text extensions & No personal commentary: Remove the mention of a WF-era user"

Suggestion 4.1 - Remove ALL references to past drama (Logohub)
Suggestion from user: "actually, no need to reference past drama overall, like the SSF thing on Klasky-Csupo."

Suggestion 5 - Rewrite "No Drama" to change from talking about literal drama to the more common type (Compooper)
Current rule: While visiting this website, please keep in mind that this is the Closing Logo Group. This is supposed to be a drama-free group that focuses solely on closing logos and the production companies behind them and so on. This isn't the place for drama queens and kings, petulance, popularity contests, dramatic award winning performances and so on.

Reasoning from user: "This rule needs a complete rewrite, it clearly talks about a different kind of drama instead of the one most would typically expect."

Suggestion 6 - Change "Personal Attacks" to include discrimination and merge with "Treat All Members Equally" (Compooper and Buzzfan120)
Current rule: Do not attack, harass, insult, persecute, or otherwise provoke users. That means, among other things, no fighting. Anyone caught engaging in any of these activities, regardless of their roles, will recieve a warning, then a block should the behaviour continue. as we have a 0-tolerance policy against abusive behavior, even if on websites not affiliated with the AVID (e.g. Facebook, Twitter, YouTube, DeviantArt, Discord). AVID is meant to be a friendly and fun place to be.

- Any form of hateful conduct, including directly threatening or attacking others on the basis of race, ethnicity, nationality, sexual orientation, gender, religion, age, condition (mental or medical) or disability, is strictly prohibited.

- Relating to the above, death hoaxes are forbidden. Any user caught deliberately making a death hoax about another user with malicious intent will be blocked.

Reasoning from users:
 * "Personal Attacks should be renamed/repurposed to: Please respect all users: Similar to how the current AVID discord rules writes it, it should mention "No bigotry, racism, lgbtq+-phobia" and also mention no saying any related slurs. Maybe merge it with "treat all members equally"." - Compooper
 * "And no ableism, either. I am so sick and tired of people using "autism" as an insult. As an autistic person myself, I find that highly offensive." - Buzzfan120

Support

 * Definitely agree with the reasoning. Plus a good way to thumb our noses at a certain BOD member whose name starts with M. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 23:01, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 1)  Let's not let anything like THAT day happen ever again. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)

Suggestion 7 - Organize the rules in categories (Compooper)
Suggestion from user: "Finally, the rule page should be organized in sections with similar rules, for example group all account rules into one section, all article rules into one section, and so on."

Suggestion 8 - Revise "One Account Only" to allow multiple accounts under some circumstances (Blad)
Current rule: "The number of accounts that you are limited to registering is one. This is also a simple step to reduce instances of sockpuppetry. Sockpuppetry is when someone tries to hide from a certain ban under a new username. Sockpuppet accounts are not tolerated and will be blocked immediately upon discovery.

- If you've made a username sometime ago, but forgot the password of it and then registered a new account with a similar username, ask an administrator or moderator to block the old account while retaining the new one, or submit a password reset request to Miraheze for the old account and then have the new one cancelled. Failure to do either action will result in both accounts being suspended.

- If you want to change your username for any reason, you can request a Global Rename from Miraheze by posting on their Stewards' Noticeboard or their Discord server.

- If you have signed up with an offensive username, then you will be required to request a global rename. Do not misuse this rule to troll on the site and break our other rules or you will be blocked and you will no longer be welcome on the site.

- If you have been temporarily blocked and you create a new account to bypass your block, your ban will become permanent.

- This rule does not apply to users operating approved bots"

Suggestion and reasoning from user: Instead of this, I would suggest modifying the policy so that A. Users are required to disclose alternative accounts, as there are several reasons to allow them (see this page for examples), and B. block users who actively abuse them. Using an alt account isn't always abusive. On the flipside, you could also make it so only autoconfirmed/autopatrolled users can use alternative accounts."

Suggestion 9 - Rename "No Stealing Content to "Don't copy this wiki as your own" (Compooper)
Current rule: "The contents of the AVID may be referenced in news articles and other media of the like. However, it is forbidden to deliberately copy any section of this site and label it as your own. Examples include creating another wiki site, copying pages from this site, claiming the pages as your own, and stealing any captures. Doing any of the above actions will automatically result in a ban, and the duplicate site being deleted by Miraheze staff."

Suggestion and reasoning from user: "Current rule only talks about duplicating the site, maybe rename it to "Don't copy this wiki as your own""

Suggestion 10 - Rewrite and Rename "No Full Shows" to "Don't Upload Copyrighted Programs" (Compooper)
Current rule: "Do not upload videos of logos that have footage of movies, TV programs or video games. That includes the beginning of movies or the end of TV series that feature content inappropriate for this website, and/or where you have to skip to a certain section to show the logo because of risk of termination of the user's account (especially for those users on YouTube!). These can also cause browsers to either slow down or crash, due to the length of the video. In addition, this is a potential copyright violation and against the Creative Commons License. If possible, download the video and edit it on any form of video editing software (e.g. Windows Movie Maker, VEGAS Pro, VideoPad) where it just has the logo."

Suggestion from user: "I would rewrite the rule as the following...

Don't Insert Copyrighted Programs We know that certain captures of logos can only be found on full recordings of movies or TV shows. However, we request that you do not insert such videos into this wiki, due to copyright concerns. If you have a YouTube account, you could try editing the video to the part where it has the logo, and upload that capture to the wiki, of course crediting the original uploader. Most of the rules could use a rewrite similar to this language."

Suggestion 11 - Rewrite "Don't Feed The Trolls" to a more neutral tone (Compooper)
Current rule: Don't respond to any trolls that cause trouble on the site. The people who add fuel to the fire are just as bad as the people who started it. Ban them and be done with it, or if you're not an admin, let one know via their talk page, their messageboard, AVID:User Reports or the AVID discord and not on the thread itself.

Suggestion from user: "Make it a less aggressive tone. Like below:

Don't Feed The Trolls Trolls are a big problem on this wiki, and we understand they can agitate you when encountering them. But don't go as far as directly fighting with them, as more often than not it would only make the situation worse. If you encounter a troll on this website, either report them in the User Reports, or directly notify an admin/bureaucrat in the Discord, and they will act accordingly in the situation."

Support

 * 1)  Way too aggressive in current form. AlmightyKingPrawn (talk) 23:22, 22 October 2022 (UTC)
 * 2)  Exactly. T807sig.png · Talk · Edits 00:37, 23 October 2022 (UTC)